Comments on OSNews' review of Nvu
By glazou on Wednesday 21 April 2004, 19:28 - Nvu - Permalink
The review is available here.
- There is no way to define a local site
- Right. That was included in 0.20 release notes. 0.3 will allow to create a local site.
- I think this is unacceptable because all web developers first develop on their own machines
- "Unacceptable". Hum. Even in a v0.20? In my humble opinion, you are expecting a v1.0 feature level from that 0.20...
- I wish N|vu could create documents with different doctypes like XHTML transitional or strict
- That's on the TODO list.
- Currently these settings are in Format menu under "Page Colors and Background" and "Page Title and Properties". I would suggest the author to merge these 2 menus into one and make it available via right click for easy and fast access
- Why not. I have to see it is possible.
- Sadly I could not find any way to change the page encoding except modifying the source code.
- You can do find using File > Save as charset (that menu item will be renamed "Save and change encoding").
- Since I could not find a way to attach an external style sheet to my page
- Ah, you missed it. Tools > CSS Editor. Click on "Link element" button.
- I wondered if it could save these inline codes to an external CSS file
- It can. Extract the styles of the element using the contextual click on the structure toolbar then open the CSS editor and select the internal stylesheet the application just created. You can export it to the local filesystem.
-
<style type="text/css"> *#moz_BIYVeVTk3320 { margin-top: 0px; margin-left-value: 0px; margin-left-ltr-source: physical; margin-left-rtl-source: physical; padding-top: 0px; padding-left-value: 0px; padding-left-ltr-source: physical; padding-left-rtl-source: physical; } </style> - This is a bug and should be fixed. Thanks for spotting it out.
- Sadly it did not append code to that file but overwrote it
- Euhhhhh.... The button says "Export", not "Append"...
- It also has a neat preview feature for text, background and borders related styles
- Not only text, background and borders. All styles applied through the CSS editor are immediately applied to the document and the effect is instantaneously visible.
- One thing I'd love to see is the ability to apply a class or id to a tag by right clicking on it in status bar
- That's in the forthcoming version.
- While dialog boxes to insert both forms and tables are very simple and yet professional, the default-generated code is again bloated
- This will be fixed in forthcoming version.
- table body tag being unrequested
- according to the HTML 4.01 specification section 11.2.1, at least one tbody element is mandatory inside a table... And Mozilla serializes all elements, there is no way in the DOM to tell if an element was really present in the document instance or was implicit.
- One may say that WYSIWYG programs are used by newbies and that they don't care about the code but I strongly disagree, because this was a mistake made by MS FrontPage, and because of that, these days the web is full of wrongly-coded web pages which look different on each browser
- Please... FrontPage is a good tool producing bad markup, that's all. It's possible to do wysiwyg and valid markup, we'll prove it.
- Again, implementation of a global Properties bar would make developers' lives easier
- and increase drastically the size of the editor window or reduce drastically the size of the content area... Our editor should be useable on screens smaller than 21 inches.
- This code seems much cleaner, but again it has an unneeded <br> in it
- Yes. And we need it to be able to select the empty line. It's a long story and I won't enter into details here but this is a VERY complex problem in Gecko, Mozilla's layout engine, going faaaar beyond Nvu and Composer. We started again recently discussing the issue and we know we have to fix the problem.
- When switched back to Source view again I was shocked that N|vu deleted all that code. I think this is a bug.
- I agree with that.
- One disappointment was that my layer did not have any handles to move or resize itself.
- Because the style rules attached to your div were not making it "position: absolute"... We are not going to show resizing handles and a grabber for all divs with an ID. A div with an ID is not a movable object by nature.
- No layers support, code somehow gets deleted if it has no content (for layers).
- You did that test too fast. You have 3 buttons in the main toolbar allowing to create a layer from the selection in one click, bring a layer to front, or send it to the background.
- It still is a very young application and does not yet provide options to insert Flash, Shockwave, Java Applets, Movies and embedded plugins into the page
- Right.
- I am aware that Mozilla's source view has had a syntax highlighting for at least 3 releases. So I think it should not be too hard to implement it in N|vu.
- You are wrong. Mozilla is displaying coloured source. Nvu would have to (a) edit it (b) preserving the selection between the normal view and that view. And that's hard. I started discussed the thing with Mozilla peers and we have some tracks. I have some extra ideas. But it's harder than you think, trust me.
- I think professional web developers will want to wait for the missing parts and features to be implemented
- Seriously, that's not our primary target. Pros will always have to rely on much more advanced tools, integrating various technologies and not only a markup editor. We want FIRST to provide average users with a reliable, easy, powerful and clean content editor for the Web. Then we'll think about the pros. I got some feedback that some schools and university departments moved to Nvu. That's part of our target.

Comments
go go go
"Again, implementation of a global Properties bar would make developers' lives easier
and increase drastically the size of the editor window or reduce drastically the size of the content area... Our editor should be useable on screens smaller than 21 inches."
What happened to customizing the toolbars like the fox or the bird does? I don't think small screens are an argument for *not implementing* it. Make it optional, or maybe even an extension, if that functionality is going to be embedded in Nvu.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to the Osnews review.
It's very encouraging to see you taking the criticism to heart, and considering it.
I think we all would like to see OS applications become as polished (and better) than the closed source ones. And who else are you writing them for, than for people.
I myself am looking for a replacement for FrontPage (which I've stopped using some time ago). I've been using Symantec Visual Page and NoteTabPro to do simple editing of pages, and looking at other solutions.
But, until NVu, I didn't see anything I thought I'd like to switch to.
It's coming along quite nicely, as is Linspire.
Thank you for your diligence in reading and responding to the review. I'm looking forward to later versions.
Is there a NVU roadmap?
When is 1.0 scheduled?
TBODY has an optional open and close tag per HTML4's DTD, so no, it's not required to be present in an HTML document (it *is* required to be in the DOM, though, and in XHTML documents).
From the DTD:
<!ELEMENT TBODY O O (TR)+ -- table body -->
Wanted to chime in and say NVU looks super so far. Can't wait for future releases.
À quand une version en français de Nvu? Peut-on aider à la traduction?
"One disappointment was that my layer did not have any handles to move or resize itself."
"Because the style rules attached to your div were not making it "position: absolute"... We are not going to show resizing handles and a grabber for all divs with an ID. A div with an ID is not a movable object by nature."
It would be neat to be able to adjust the padding and margins with some sort of gui though.
I agree with bsander. Please make it an option. Not something you need to hurry to crush into 0.3, but it's a good idea.
<pontificate hobbyhorse=thegimp> I like the way GIMP 2 does things - many independent windows that can be attached (docked) to each other. This makes odd configurations like two or more small screens, or portrait screens, very bearable.
One of the common virtues of FOSS when compared to the typical closed program is flexibility. A redesign to achieve just more flexible windowing is probably not in order now, but please keep it in mind in case the screen layout undergoes any major surgery later.
Another GIMP feature that I like is scripting. It can cover for a lot of other sins. I look forward one day to being able to "urpmi nvu-ruby" (-: </pontificate>
"You don't have to request or not a table body tag : according to the HTML 4.01 specification section 11.2.1, at least one tbody element is mandatory inside a table... So tbody here is mandatory."
This is not correct. The specs (11.2.3) say "The TBODY start tag is always required except when the table contains only one table body and no table head or foot sections". So, if you don't have a table header or footer then you don't need the TBODY tag.
Re Malcolm's comment, XHTML doesn't need it either.
www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#C_1... - "Also, some XHTML elements may or may not appear in the object tree because they are optional in the content model (e.g. the tbody element within table)".
Correction: the element is mandatory, the tags are not.
Bravo pour Nvu: cela comble un manifestement un manque pour Linux. C'est vraiment génial que vous ayez pu trouver des sponsors pour développer du logiciel libre. Toutes mes félicitations !!
About the coloured source editor, one has obviously been made on top of Gecko by ActiveState for their Komodo editor.
Daniel, to go completely off-topic here, Nvu is on the cd that comes with computer en techniek (heise.de) Great promotion!! btw, Nvu rocks! even in it's early stages.
I'm a semi-newbie to HTML and far from professional. I am using Nvu with good success for my little projects, and look forward to the local site capabilities.
Any chance of releasing weekly builds? Your blog keeps mentioning the additions that sound great, and once in a while you post links to a pre-release download.
Keep up the great work. Thanks
Hooray! Can't wait for NVU to mature in time to come but most important thing is not to rush, but to take time and make sure things goes right. I hope one day to see a such feature for tables (with columns/rows) where you you put the cursor over the lines to resize it or something.
[TBODY]
> Re Malcolm's comment, XHTML doesn't need it either.
Correct - I knew there was a difference, but I got it wrong: In HTML, the tag is optional, but the element always appears in the DOM. In XHTML, the element is also optional, but no longer implied (since that's an SGML feature), and it's only in the DOM if it's in the document.
> Correction: the element is mandatory, the tags are not.
Daniel: Right (in HTML), and although I know there are good reasons for it, I guess the OSNews reviewer would like NVu to be more like a tag editor than a DOM editor.
Have a look!!!
business.newsforge.com/bu...
Thoughts about Linspire's approach
I've
read two reviews of Nvu, a Mozilla Composer-based Web development application, one rather superficial and the other going more into detail, comparing the actual version with Macromedia's Dreamweaver. I've also tested Nvu, and I have to say it's nice for a product at release 0.2 development stage. I teach Web programming from beginner to expert level and Nvu is already fine for intermediate webmaster use if a source code editor is also in reach.
I get extra \cr\lf somethimes ruining my code.
I like to add features to the status bar around editing tag and ideas related.
I like the actual build and look forward for 0.3