News
By glazou on Thursday 27 May 2004, 12:31 - General - Permalink
- eWeek : Is the Netscape Browser Being Reborn or Just Stabilized?. Our friend Stephen Donner agrees, apparently

- MozillaNews
- According to Moosh, Nvu was mentioned twice recently in the "Cybercafé 2.0" show on the Belgian french-speaking national TV (RTBF)
Simon Montagu, MozillaZine, BlogZiNet, Tristan Nitot
Click below to see the full text of my email eWeek interview
1. Netscape is apparently set to launch Navigator 7.2 in early May, its first browser release since mid 2003 and after it ended development by spinning out Mozilla. How significant is Netscape's decision to release an upgrade to the overall browser market? Do you expect it to have any significant new features/changes?
I don't expect significant new features for two different reasons:
- AOL does not have any more the workforce to make significant changes. AOL laid off almost all Netscape engineering in two steps, first in december 2002, then in july 2003 (that one hit me). Engineers that were not let go at these occasions were laid off in december 2003. Only remain a few people, dispatched on various AOL projects and apparently they were not reassigned to work on Netscape's browser. So AOL has really nobody to do the job and relies probably heavily on contractors for the time being.
- when AOL says it wants to release a new Netscape browser, there are really two non-exclusive options here:
-
improve the browser's core. I mean improve the way it browses the Web, making its layout engine smaller and faster, implementing more Web standards and so on. That requires a lot of knowledge of Mozilla's architecture and code, and people with that knowledge are not so common on the market. And AOL will probably face negative reactions if it tries to re-hire the people it laid off. After all, AOL never really understood Netscape, undervalued it and never used it. In 2003, AOL shipped AOL Communicator with Gecko inside (and dropped it afterwards in favor of Microsoft's engine despite of its weakness), and even before that shipped Compuserve for Mac with Gecko inside. A few other new projects - I was working on one of them - were using Mozilla and Gecko. All were very brutally stopped when AOL signed a $750M deal with Microsoft. AOL axed its Innovation Center at the same time, and that's probably the best indicator you can find about how AOL deals with its market and tries to keep it afloat.
AOL stabbed Netscape in the back with a big axe and the former Netscape engineers have not forgotten or forgiven. Most of us were very sad to leave Netscape, and happy to leave AOL.
- integrate add-ons. Forthcoming release of Netscape will probably be based on Mozilla 1.7, the new major release of Mozilla. AIM, ICQ and the other add-ons that were in Netscape 7.1 will be here; other add-ons could be very easily integrated if they remain at the chrome level, ie if they don't imply writing c++ code. That could provide the user with interesting new features but will not represent a significant change in terms of underlying technologies.
I think the reasons why AOL launches 7.2 are complex, I'll detail them below. In my opinion, Netscape 7.2 new features will be Mozilla 1.7 new features.
2. How do your read Netscape's move? Does it seem to mark a return to focusing on the browser or do you view it as part of another strategy from AOL and Netscape?
AOL faces a very agressive competition from other network providers (even internally to Time Warner with RoadRunner...), it hardly competes with long-established telcos in Europe, and its core market (modem-based internet connectivity) is decreasing at fast pace. It also provides its users with a web/mail client that did not follow users' increasing knowledge and usage of the Internet. Ten years ago, a weak mail client like the AOL mail client was enough for most customers; ten years later, they learned a lot, use the Internet all the time for personal purposes and work, and they need more than the AOL client. It evolved a little bit, but too slowly to meet users' expectations.
So AOL needs desperately to attract more customers, and that can be done only
- offering better technology. The AOL web/IM/mail client is an aggregative structure. It has grown in circles, like the trunk of a tree. It's backwards compatible with its very early versions and it's an ENORMOUS piece of software. A disruption is needed and the AOL client as it is cannot offer it. Netscape built an AOL client on Gecko (and that would have allowed XUL add-ons, and very cool new features) but AOL never shipped it. That's a mid- to long-term strategy, the one the Netscape division was pursuing, and the only one caring about the future of AOL as a technology provider. In other terms, to survive, AOL needs to organize its own internal competitor that will eventually become AOL's core.
- offering new services that make people visit AOL web sites, increasing the advertisement revenues and pushing the AOL technologies. For that, AOL needs a portal and the only efficient one it has is Netscape.com... But people who no longer have the Netscape browser on their computer are not going to visit netscape.com just because it exists. AOL needs a browser having netscape.com as its default home page. The Netscape Desktop Navigator, the circular Flash-based thingy AOL released in beta version recently, tries to do the same. Use the celebrity of Netscape's name, attracting people to AOL web sites and services.
AOL's decision to kill Netscape, and today to revive it, is also an
indicator of some kind of fierce struggle inside AOL. Two visions are
fighting, and probably two persons too. One of these could be David
Gang, backed by J.Miller. The other one could be Ted Leonsis himself.
He said "I
am like a cockroach that survives the nuclear winter. I feel I
understand
the heart of the service and that I can add value. As I put it, we are
out to do the three R's: reset, revitalize, reconceptualize.".
Whether Leonsis plays or not that game with someone else is another
question I leave open to your insight
3. How do you account for Netscape's about-face--having ended development last year only to revive it now by apparently making use of Mozilla and the Mozilla 1.7 code base?
I think I answered that question above. And I don't neglect the fact that corporations take sometimes totally stupid and counter-productive decisions...
What impact do you think its decision to still do browser releases will have on the broader effort to take on Microsoft and Internet Explorer?
Microsoft has changed its strategy. It announced the end of Internet Explorer as a free product, and the user will have to pay for the new versions of the browser. That will almost certainly extinguish a number of potential lawsuits, and generate some revenues from the IE division that has always been only a center of cost, but it could also drastically decrease Microsoft's browser market share. So there's now a nice opportunity for other browsers, including Mozilla with its Application Suite and Firefox.
Netscape will also compete with Mozilla... Only corporations needing an all-in-one software suite and people wanting to integrate AIM/ICQ to the browser are going to use Netscape. Firefox is smaller, faster and better. Get Firefox!
In my humble opinion, AOL has really only one choice : make a new
improved AOL client, aimed at advanced users while the current AOL
client is aimed at beginners, based on Mozilla and Gecko. The key thing
here is "stop being backwards compatible and move forward". If AOL does
not do that, MSN will eventually kill it. Or gobble it 
That was AOL Communicator's goal. But you can use it only if you have an AOL account (that's soooo stupid), it dropped Gecko in favor of MSIE, uses wxWindows instead of XUL so it's not extensible by downloadable add-ons. In other terms, that's a sustaining technology, not a disruptive one.
One element of uncertainty is Tasman, the excellent layout engine of MacIE. Microsoft announced the end of MacIE too but Tasman is still alive in MSN for Mac and was successfully built on many platforms, including Windows and Windows CE.
Microsoft is not dropping IE as a free product having a 90% market share without a good reason and a good vision. Never neglect the fact that Microsoft has the ability, the power and the brains to surprise us...
4. Have you tried or tested the new Netscape version? What are your impressions of it?
No I have not. As far as I know, no pre-release is available yet.
Thanks again, Daniel, for your help.

Comments
Je confirme pour Cybercafé
cybercafe.tv/modules.php?...
I just clicked the "Radio" button in my Netscape 7.1 on Linux and I got this:
ns-radio.netscape.com/sor...
"Your machine does not meet the minumum system requirements in order to download Radio@Netscape. [...] System requirements: [...] IE 5.0 and above".
So finally, a Netscape.com website urges me to install Microsoft Internet Explorer. Brand necrophilia at its best.
I went to a Windows 98 machine, downloaded this R@N thing, and yes, the new Radio@Netscape is based on Internet Explorer. It doesn't even launch my default browser on that machine (Netscape 7), all the links from Radio@Netscape open in IE.
Is there anyone still believing in Netscape 7.2?
@ marcoos
Past releases of Netscape for Windows often included Winamp with a Netscape skin. But although Winamp looked like Netscape, the Winamp browser always used MSHTML for rendering. So the fact Netscape radio uses Windows ressources like MSIE isn't that surprising.
AOL never used the potential of Gecko as a platform - they always thought, it is just another browser.
Hi Daniel,
Since I couldn't find any other way to
contact you I'm having to post an offtopic
comment in your blog. My appologies.
It's about your quest to find a way of
implementing getElementbyClass. Right
after I'd managed to find a way of
my own I found you weblog entry,
and I found much more simple.
I've also tested in Moz, Opera7.5 and all IE/win.
This is the code I came up with,
I hope it's of use to you, any comments or
critiques would greatly be appreciated.
The code (to hide elements by class):
[----------code----------]
/* extendable element hide script */
function doSome (dontSHow)
{
var divs = document.getElementsByTagName('*');
for (var i=0;i<divs.length;i++)
{
if (divs[i].className == dontShow) {
divs[i].style.display = "none";
}
}
}
[---------/code----------]
The code can be seen in action on my
portfolio page. (www.akaxaka.tk).
marcoos:
If you're running Netscape 7.1 and have AIM installed go into preferences and click on 'Buddy Icons' unless there's something changed there since I last used it (months ago) it tells you on that page to set IE as your default browser!
glazou:
Got any screenshots of this AOL client based on XUL that you say Netscape were working on?
Wow, you seem to think that AOL/Netscape owes you something and the decision to cut Netscape was somehow not justifies:
>>All were very brutally stopped when AOL signed a $750M deal with Microsoft. AOL axed its Innovation Center at the same time<<
Netscape (the browser part of it) was a division that did not produce any income whatsover. What were they supposed to do? Keep it going forever? It was inevitable. After 6 years of development, Netscape has failed to make *any* kind of inroads into IE's dominance. Not that overtaking IE would produce any income, but at least you could have some claim to fame. The only thing Netscape/Mozilla could point to is technical excellence of the product (after 6 long years), which is not enough (see histories of Commodore, Amiga, BeOs, etc...) So let's see: we have a division that a) not producing any income, b) is very expensive c) not making any market share inroads d) its primary competitor is free and has been integrated into the company's main product since 1997. Yeah, let's keep it going forever, why not. Smell the reality, gentlemen.
rizzo: oh thank you so much for your views of the browsers' market, market that you seem to see reduced to the application you launch clicking on a desktop icon on a PC. Smell the reality, man, you just did not get the first pixel of the whole image.
Daniel, please don't speak for the client engineering group with phrases like "the former Netscape engineers have not forgotten or forgiven." Most of us have gotten over it, and have gotten on with our lives. Most of us consider ourselves better off today than a year ago.
I was not speaking of CPD as an entity. Individually, I heard enough of our former colleagues express recently quite strong opinions about our former employer. And certainly enough to represent a majority. Now, please put back the sentence in its context : you, as a former CPD Engr (just quoting your anonymous signature here), would you accept a job offer (employee, on site, full-time) from AOL to work again on a new version of the Netscape browser ?
2 AkaXakA:
To get elements by class, you can use XPath instead of cycles.
In IE:
var objXMLDOMNodeList = oXMLDOMNode.selectNodes("//*[@class='foo']");
In Mozilla this is available via DOM3 Xpath (createNSResolver)
"Tasman ... was successfully built on many platforms, including Windows and Windows CE." Daniel, I have it on extremely high authority that that is not true. I can only guess why someone might have wanted you to believe it.
Re:The Monday 31 May 2004 at 22:11, by rizzo
rizzo,
did you read the post, you replied to?
Makes SH%T is going to charge you, to get that heap of SH*T
for FREE, you'll get a wordpad of a browser....
ever tried linx? you'd be glad for it =))
maybe, they'll exhume some origninal MOSAIC code, undust it, add some XP64 lac... et voilà!!!
browsers.evolt.org/downlo...
have fun...
nbr.>8)
The Netscape.com folks need a current browser to survive. They did a great job with Netscape 7.2 (which I'm using), by taking Mozilla 1.7.2 and adding the usual additions (I use ICQ on a daily basis and wouldn't run the bloated stand-alone clients), plus, they contracted the guys at the mozdevgroup (www.mozdevgroup.org) to create the "Netscape Toolbar" (formerly only available for MSIE) in a native mozilla xul version.
So far, I like it, and I'll keep using it and recommending it until the Mozilla Foundation folks begin to understand that their current incarnation of the Mozilla suite is "not good enough for me".
It doesn't matter to me if NS 7.2 was done by contract workers, aliens, or by people aboard the international space station. The fact is that it's based on the Mozilla.org code (so the bugs are worked out by the Mozilla.org staff) and that the usual additions (plus some new XPI additions) are in there.
In fact, what AOL has currently done is "off-shoring" development to the Mozilla Foundation. They also have the tools to do future releases based on future mozilla.org builds. So why worry?
I don't see myself dropping a tightly integrated browser + email suite like NS 7.2 (or Mozilla 1.7) for a patchwork of separate applications like Firefox + Thunderbird.
What Mozilla.org should do, is build a nice business case and sign an agreement with the Netscape.com portal managers, so that Mozilla.org builds and extends the Netscape browser, and in exchange they get a licence to use the Netscape brand on all current Mozilla.org products. THAT would be great. (if it would be workable, that's an entirely different matter).
I've said since 1998 that using the "mozilla" moniker to label a software product was a wrong decision. It should have been "Netscape" (the version with the proprietary bits), and "OpenNetscape" (the Mozilla.org builds). Then all the infighting of "Netscape sucks, Mozilla rules" (typical slashdotter attitude) would have never existed.
Just my 2 cents...